An Interview with Carolyn Mayer
A double major in Art History and International Comparative Studies, Carolyn Mayer graduated from Duke in 2015. Interested in the intersection of business and art, she briefly worked at Sotheby’s before beginning to work at Phillips Auction House in New York. Five years later, Carolyn is now the Evening Sale Cataloguer at Phillips, responsible for the sales of 40 to 50 works valued at over $100 million. FORM caught up with Carolyn amidst her preparation for an upcoming sale in November, talking about her early interest in art, experiences at Phillips, and thoughts on the emerging online art market.
Abby Shlesinger: Let’s start from the beginning! I would love to know what drew you to the study of art history and international comparative studies as an undergrad.
Carolyn Mayer: I got to Duke and I thought I was interested in art history. I wasn't totally sure. I was really excited about the Nasher being on campus. It's such a unique and great institution, and during my time at Duke, they were really ahead of the curve in terms of collecting and doing exhibitions of African American artists. I remember interning there, and that in conjunction with my art history courses, it was just a dream experience. I think that Duke really set me up for success in the art world, and a couple of my colleagues at Phillips are Duke grads. It’s been a great experience and Duke was absolutely a part of that.
AS: So during college, you mentioned you interned for the Nasher. What were the other internships that shaped your world experience? And then how did those experiences later affect your decision to want to work in auctions?
CM: I had the privilege of interning at Christie's Auction House after my freshman year at Duke. I was in the post-world contemporary art department and that really solidified my desire to work in the art world, not just study it as an undergrad. I absolutely loved the research I was doing. While part of it was academic, as I'm sure you know with writing catalogue essays and going through a lot of books, the other component was completely market driven. That combination really fascinated me. I knew that that was something, those two things in conjunction with something that I really wanted to pursue in my career.
After that I interned at a gallery. It was called Leila Heller Gallery. They were focused on Middle Eastern artists, and that tied in really nicely with my ICS major because I focused on the Middle East region. I also interned for Gurr Johns, which is an art advisory and appraisal company. I think I've had a well rounded set of experiences interning. I got exposure to the main art venues you can go into as a profession. Something about the Christie's internship really stuck with me the whole time. I knew that was what I really wanted to pursue, if possible. So that's what I went for!
AS: Did you begin working full-time at Phillips or did you work at another company prior to Phillips?
CM: When I graduated, without a job by the way, which is not rare for art history majors and those going into the art world, I started off by working for a family friend. It was one of my best friend’s grandparents, who were big art collectors, and I helped them catalogue and inventory their entire art collection. It was an incredible hands-on experience, to follow the collecting passion and trajectory of two individuals who are now in their eighties but started collecting when they were much younger. It was amazing to see what they collected back in the ‘80s and what kind of contemporary artists they were looking at today. I got to look at invoices from years ago to see what they paid for something then and what it's worth now. That was my first work experience post grad.
Then I got a job at Sotheby's in the Floater Program, which is an elevated internship of sorts. I was in the Trusts and Estates Department, which was considered to be a support department, not a specialist department. I was doing a lot of appraisals. Any collection that came into Sotheby’s that wasn't only going to be sold in one department, such as only contemporary art or only English furniture, would be funneled through Trusts and Estates. We'd act as the central point of contact for the consigner or the fiduciary who is acting on behalf of the consignor. We would then liaise between them and the specialist departments that were doing the pricing, ultimately putting together the cataloguing, etc.
That was an amazing experience and I absolutely loved it, but I think I still had an itch to get into a specialist department. I really wanted to be an expert in the art and I wanted to be a bit more hands-on versus working with the lawyers. I was applying to jobs as they were coming up on NYFA, and a job opened up at Phillips as an executive assistant. I applied for that role, which I got. It was an executive assistant for two of the deputy chairmen who worked in the contemporary art department. That’s how I got my foot in the door at Phillips. It's been over five years now, which is really crazy, but it's been an amazing company to work for.
AS: Over those five years, I know you've been in a few different positions at Phillips. I would love to hear more about your journey within the company, and the things you enjoyed about each of the different roles you've played.
CM: As I mentioned, I started as an assistant. That was a really great introduction, because I got to work very closely with senior people, which is always a plus. I also got to start to understand how people in the auction world interacted with clients. The two men I worked for had incredibly high net worth and high profile clients, and I got to speak with them directly. I got to organize their shipments and look at their art, and that was a really unique experience.
I naturally moved into an admin role once the Day Sale Administrator role opened up. I did that for two years and it was probably the most important foundation building block skills I could have built in the auction world. That is where I made all the contracts for my sale, organized all the shipping, put together the lot order, really just oversaw every single logistical and operational aspect of the sale. I think something that I'm really proud of during that experience was at that time, when I started, Phillips only had one Day Sale, and halfway through we broke it out into a Morning and Afternoon Sale, which is what we currently have and what Sotheby's and Christie's have. It sounds like an easy process, but splitting one sale into two was a great challenge and learning experience. It came with a lot of, I don't know if power is the right word, but autonomy, and I had to make a lot of decisions. It was a really big growing experience personally for my career at a relatively young age.
In the second year of my admin role I knew I wanted to be a cataloguer. That is when I started to reach out to my peers who were cataloguers and ask them to take me on trips with them to the warehouse and to let me write catalogue essays. You should always try to do some of the job that you want next in your current role! After doing that for a season or two, I became the Afternoon Sale Cataloguer which was amazing. There was a lot of volume in that sale, and I learned a lot about contemporary art. My boss, Rebecca Bowling, was absolutely amazing. She is a guru in all things contemporary, and I learned so much from her. That was really a volume game. I had about 200 words in my sale. You have to get through the volume.
Recently, I guess it was right when the pandemic hit, I moved into the Evening Sale Cataloguer role. Despite being the same title, it's a very, very different experience. It's not about volume at all, we have about 40 lots per sale, but it's all about going in depth and being a real expert in each object in your sale from start to finish. That's been my trajectory at Phillips so far, and I'm still the cataloguer for the Evening Sale. It's been nice to finally be in person with art again. It was an odd pandemic experience working in such a hands-on industry, so the return to normalcy is definitely welcome.
AS: As the Evening Sale Cataloguer, I know you see some absolutely incredible art. Are there any standout moments or memories from previous sales or things that you've worked on?
CM: Yeah, that's a great question. Purely value wise, we sold a Hockney work a few seasons ago, which sold for over $40 million. It was incredible and very exciting, and it set a world record for a landscape by the artist. I was very involved in it from the time we were pitching for it through the creative process. To see that we had multiple bidders on it at the end of the day, and it went above the low estimate, was really just a great thing to witness. What was especially exciting about that result was that the other auction houses, who were also competing for the work, estimated it at a lower value. We had faith that this was a masterpiece, and the market stepped up and responded to that. It showed that we made the right move. I think all the work that went into it really also drove the price to make what it did.
AS: That's really exciting! You also mentioned a few minutes ago that you saw the Phillips Contemporary Day Sale split into a morning and afternoon session. Are there any other developments you've seen over the past few years within Phillips or other auction houses that are uniquely exciting or that have changed the nature of what you do?
CM: Absolutely! When I first started in the auction world, physical catalogues were what everything revolved around. From the time you set your sale date, you're backtracking out to when your catalogue print date is. That then backtracks to your photography deadline, your consignment deadline, your shipping deadline, and all of that is essentially revolving around this physical book that you're printing and sending out to potential buyers. This season – and the other auction houses are also on board with this – we are not having any sort of printed catalogue, and everything is going to be online and digital. That is probably the biggest shift, especially as a cataloguer! I still have to do all of the research and writing, but it now just lives online rather than in a physical book.
That's one example, but broadly, there's been such a push into the digital sphere. It’s having a lot of our bidders bid online and having potential buyers never see work in person because we're creating VR tours for them. They really feel like they're able to stand in front of the work without having traveled to view it, which was a huge asset during the past year and a half during the pandemic. Also, trying to come up with new innovative, creative ideas to market works digitally instead of in print. It’s great from a cost cutting perspective, it's great from an environmental perspective, and it's really speaking to a new generation of collectors who are young and excited to engage online and digitally. I think that's really the future of where the art market and the auction world are heading.
AS: You predicted my next question, which was to ask what you have thought about the online developments in the art world. Do you think that it's a positive change more so than it is a negative?
CM: I do. I think in some ways, nothing replaces standing in front of an artwork. That being said, it's really exciting that we're able to create such a global kind of company. It really is great for educational purposes and market purposes, and I think that it will only continue to get better with time. Even so, the New York Art Fair circuit was back in person last week. It was so exciting to finally be able to go in person again and see the art versus all these digital art fairs that have been happening for the past year and a half. I think it's a mix, but definitely more positive than negative.
AS: I know you're gearing up for a big push to the November Evening Sale. Does the day-to-day change significantly when you near the time of the sale? Is there anything you're particularly excited about with this upcoming group of works?
CM: Over the summer, I was really focused on proposals. We did a lot of proposals and pitches for works that we were hoping to win, often competing against Sotheby’s and Christie's. That's really fun, because we get to dig into either the story of the artwork or the story of the collectors. Then we also get to be creative about “Why Phillips?” We have some amazing data and amazing results that highlight why we are a really great sales platform. But again, we are size-wise the third biggest auction house, so it is an uphill battle. We have won some amazing consignments for this upcoming fall season; I don't think I'm allowed to divulge the details yet! We are at a time now where I'm pivoting to focus on the works that are already confirmed for my sale. I'm going out to our warehouse tomorrow with our Sales Head and going to catalogue the first batch of works that have arrived. That is everything from taking measurements, signatures, labels, doing condition reports, overseeing the photography, all of that, so it's a very hands-on experience. That is what my next two months look like and then we move into sale week, which is crazy.
AS: That's so exciting that you're about to go to see the works, good luck! A more general question, do you have any advice for students that are interested in working in the art market? Or more specifically in an auction house?
CM: Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I graduated without a job. I was the only one of my friends who graduated without a job. It was very scary and very frustrating during graduation weekend. That being said, the art world operates on a different timeline than other industries. It's very timing-based, in the sense that just because you did well on an internship, or you establish a great rapport with someone, doesn't mean they're just going to hire you. Hiring is really to fill a position that's needed.
I would encourage everyone to be patient. I know that's definitely a privilege to be able to do that. After graduation, if that means doing a floater program like I did, it helps you get experience. I think that it’s great if you're able to get a couple different experiences, and hopefully you can do something at Duke with the Nasher or an auction or gallery. They are different, and I think you don't understand what the day-to-day of each is until you live it a bit, so I think that's pretty valuable.
Then going into auction specifically, I think that getting your foot in the door is the best way to get in. Even if it's not your dream role, you can make the connections once you're there to pivot into the department or role that you really want. It's a lot easier to do it once you're in and you can have face time with people. I think that enthusiasm is also something that is really important. I mean, don't go into the art world if you don't like art that much. Go see gallery shows, go to museum shows, go to art fairs. Hopefully you enjoy doing it, but also to be able to speak to those things in interviews to show that you're excited. It's easy to get stuck behind a screen, it's easy to get bogged down in administrative things, but we're working in the art world because we love art. My number one recommendation is to go see art as much as you can!
AS: Is there anything else you want to mention before we wrap up?
CM: I would just say to everyone at Duke that there's some amazing professors and resources. Take advantage of that as much as possible. Duke was the most incredible experience in my life, and I miss it every day. You guys are all very lucky. Also feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions and want more specific industry advice. Duke has a really great network as well!